Eclipse d20: Master of the Sabbat

And for today, it’s a (slightly paraphrased and annotated) question!

I couldn’t find much about Master of the Sabbat (An ability that allows a Witch to build up a powerful effect over time) on the site.

So I have a character that has a remarkably high PP-reserve (~1290) and has just decided to use his Elfshot-ability (This normally lays minor curses, at a cost of 1 power for quick effects, 2 for lingering afflictions, and three for permanent ones) on someone for a permanent curse.

Can he use up all of his 1290 PP for that everyday over 28 days (430 curses daily, basically) and the apply the effect or can he only contribute one Elfshot per day?

And what would be the corresponding effects of the first and the second?


Master of the Sabbat doesn’t show up that much in the sample builds because most adventurers want somewhat more immediate results – and the “target must be reasonably accessible for the entire time” and “the Witch must hang around the target for days on end” requirements have mostly kept player-characters from bothering. I anticipated that, and – since it would mostly be appearing in the game masters hands as a plot device – didn’t put in a lot of detail on how to calculate the effects; if I’d put in every calculation… it would have bloated the book by several hundred pages and it didn’t seem worth it.

A character can spend as much Power per day on Master of the Sabbat as he or she pleases. 1290 Power is an awful lot – and it probably won’t be necessary to spend ALL of it for any reasonable effect – but in game terms, there are two basic components to building up an effect; power and complexity.

Power can simply be built up through repetition: if you want to use Hand of Shadows to bring down a castle wall and have 40 power per day, just add it up. Forty hours of “light work” per day (even if we call an hours “light work” – say, casually banging away with a pick in between pages of your light novel – only 1d6 points of damage to the structure) times up to twenty-eight days provides up to 1120d6 of damage – enough, in general, to bring down a very big chunk of the walls of Jericho. It might only take a weeks effort to open enough breaches to easily swarm the place.

Complexity is harder: for that we’ll want to consider Lerandor’s Rule (from The Practical Enchanter):

Anything that can be done with magic can be done with basic spells; it simply takes at least two specialized spells of level “N” to duplicate the effect of a spell of level “N+1”.

-Archmage Lerandor

Thus two specialized cantrips can be chained together to duplicate a first level spell, four a second level, eight a third level, and so on all the way up to at least five hundred and twelve chained cantrips to duplicate a ninth-level spell. Maybe some wealthy academic has had a bunch of minor mages do this as a test sometime, but it’s almost never worth the bother and expense.

There’s a “Runesmith” build up on the site which exploits Lerandor’s Rule – but it isn’t directly applicable; a Runesmith is building up careful chains of triggered cantrips to build on each other (the efficient approach), while Master of of the Sabbat is essentially using the “break it down into small steps” approach and is starting off with something stronger than cantrips to start with.

As far as the calculations go…

  • There are dozens of Witchcraft abilities, and we don’t want to start doing calculations on each one. so for our first approximation, we’ll say Witchcraft abilities are all level two for our current purposes. Some may be higher of course, but most of those are pretty specific effects – not something you want to build up over time.
  • Four our second approximation, and to avoid asking the game master to individually evaluate dozens (or hundreds) of little sub-effects, we’ll say that it takes twice as many effects to do something little by little as it does to do it with an optimized chain of specific abilities. Thus getting a +1 level equivalence costs 4 uses of a Witchcraft ability, +2 costs 8, +3 costs 16, and so on. To get what you can manage on most calculators… Ln(Number of Uses) / (Ln(2) +2, rounded down, works to calculate the effective level you can produce.
  • To see what you can do with such curses, I’d consult The Practical Enchanter and the Malediction Spell Template.

In your specific case that’s Ln(12,040)/Ln(2) + 2 = 15.56, rounded down to 15 – a very very powerful curse indeed. According to the Malediction Template a fifteenth level curse can do some pretty awful things to rather a lot of people; you probably won’t need to use your full power on this one.

A much lesser witch can still be extremely nasty though; a 30-power witch with Master of the Sabbat and Elfshot who can only manage ten permanent curses per day can still pull off a tenth level curse effect (presuming that the target(s) let them hang around giving them the evil eye all day for a month to generate and store up the 280 sub-curses anyway). That’s enough to – say – curse a family for all time (+4 levels) with an extremely difficult to remove (+1 level) curse of uncontrollable lycanthropy (Base level of 5).

Of course, the low save DC for Witchcraft means that many members of the family will be unaffected – so the curse will run in their bloodline, only afflicting occasional scions, until someone goes on a quest or something to find a way to negate it. (Which is usually where the PC’s come in, rather than them being the ones laying the curse).

Still, this allows powerful (literally “full of Power”) and malevolent witches with that particular combination of abilities to lay curses of undeath on entire villages, inflict awful fates on innocent (or guilty) people, and otherwise generate up to one adventure suitable for a group of low- to mid-level player characters to go on every month. A sufficiently angry witch with Hand of Shadows can smash the wall of the evil overlords castle to let in the mob, a Weathermonger can raise a terrible storm, and someone with True Prosperity can bring health and wealth to a small city.

Doing something about Witchcraft’s low save DC if you’re after a particular target is another matter, but if you’re going to the trouble to spend a month creating your effect, it’s often worth devoting a few of your available “spell level” equivalents to spamming the effect to force multiple saves through the Multiple metamagic, inflicting penalties on the save through the Lacing metamagic, or just doubling the effect (“Allows no Save”) with the Amplify metamagic.

And I hope that helps!

12 Responses

  1. I see… yeah, this helps me a lot. Though I have another question: What about curses without mechanical effects? How are these rated?

    • Well, the Malediction template includes ways to curse people with hideous dooms, to make them unable to get home, to make people hate them, and a wide variety of other effects. As it stands this is a bit vague though; did you have anything in particular in mind or a few examples?

      • Sadly, I’m still on the topic of trying to make an NPC as loyal as possible. I made it a familiar (which I specialized for increased loyalty), I hit it with Bestow Curse and Bestow Greater Curse to ensure loyalty,, it get’s about 60 CP in benefits (including Unique Returning) for being loyal, I have a Witchcraft Spirit Binding with it to make it more loyal, it has 3 disadvantages (Vow, Compulsion, Accursed) with all three making it more loyal as part of them, I hit it with a Blood Curse for an additional Disadvantage (Accursed) to have it be loyal, gave it a template which made it more loyal as a “Corruption”, gave it an “Cursed” artifact to make it more loyal, used a lot Grandiose Reality Edits (he’s been on this for about 8 ingame years and has access to a Double Mana Vortex spell with a specialized Mighty Hysteria inceasing it’s effect, so he has been constantly working on it) for that purpose and I used a 6 DP “Wrath of the Overlord” Curse to make it more loyal (could probably use another one, but I’m ot sure if it stacks).

        And now I try to make it more loyal… A loyality “curse” is basically what I intend to use. I can probably squeeze out a few more PP per day, about half the value again if it’s necessary to increase the effect further.

        So I’d say it’s an emotional curse… A loyalty curse, a love curse, a curse that inflicts an aversion to betrayal, basically.

        If it helps, the target is in touch range, a blood relative and will likely forfeit the saving throw (Bluff checks and all that).

      • Ah. In that case you could go with either a Compulsion (“You are a loyal minion who would never attempt to resist or betray me”) or a Transformation (Into an utterly loyal minion) – or, of course, both. The first is a bit odd, in that making saving throws is voluntary, so – at least in theory – this would require making a saving throw against the effect to consider making a saving throw against the effect, thus being inescapable without outside interference – but effects that protect against compulsions would at least weaken it. The second is a bit weirder, but could be overcome with the usual methods of subverting someone – although overcoming a very high level transformation would probably take a great deal of work.

        Still, at the effect levels you were contemplating using, it would probably take some specialized spells of similar level to the curse to interfere much. This is up on the “requires an epic quest to overcome” level.

      • So I’ve been thinking about it some more and noticed something: Can I even cast a level 15 Malediction? According to The Practical Enchanter, you can only create a Malediction of up to level 9.

        Or more specifically: Can I create an Affliction that calls on a spell of a higher level than 7 without taking the “Special Level Modifiers”?

      • The Practical Enchanter only “officially” covers spells of up to level nine for several reasons:

        1) It was meant to be compatible with non-Eclipse games – which generally had no rules for casting spells above level nine.

        2) It was primarily focused on practical magic – for use by relatively ordinary people. Thus the grandest effects in the book were Heartstones and Wards Major, both of which were for use by groups that probably included a lot of fairly normal people.

        3) The spell templates – like almost anything else – can start to yield some pretty odd results when pushed beyond their design limits. That doesn’t mean that you can’t use them to make spells of above level nine if you’re using a set of rules that covers casting such spells – but whoever is game mastering will probably want to take a close look at whatever you come up with to make sure that it’s reasonable and isn’t combining (say) three +3 level modifiers that were intended to be incompatible and so do something absurd when combined.

        So yes, as long as whoever is game mastering doesn’t mind.

        And I hope that helps!

      • After thinking about it, I think the Transformation L9 base + the +6 Modifier for affecting a whole bunch of people and making the range extreme should be enough to make it work. I’m trying to create something similar to Aklo Submission (but better), but since I have to make sure they understand Aklo, I need a Transformation :/

      • Well, Aklo Submission doesn’t have particularly enormous effects – a +4 bonus to Bluff, Diplomacy and Intimidate checks against the victim and a susceptibility to Suggestion would fit in just fine as the effects of a fever or any form of encephalitis – although I’d allow the use of Command and Enthrall as well. The specificity is odd, but it is a blatantly magical disease. The original version doesn’t seem to necessarily allow anyone to understand Aklo, but a fairly minor transformation should handle that. I presume that you’re planning to simply curse a LOT of people and then take advantage if it.

      • That was indeed the idea. I figured that if I go that route, I have to go for Transformation, and I figured that if i transform them, I could probably make their obedience part of that transformation. Make an order in Aklo… Well, not necessarily irresistable, but forcing a Will Save to avoid following it.

        I don’t know how customizable the “evil possessing force” is, but maybe I can make it understand Aklo and programm the obedience into that evil force so it possesses them and makes them do stuff.

        Alternatively, I figured that I might be able to take these modifiers and make it a Doom effect, essentially having the Doom cast a low level transformation and a low level compulsion on every “infected” individual.

      • I presume you mean the “Wrathful or Malevolent Spirit”? That part really isn’t under your control – which is why there’s a penalty for wording things in terms of game mechanics and the potential for backlash; the spellcaster is quite literally sending a message out into the multiverse “here’s an opening into my universe, a link to the target, and a general statement about how I’d like to make him/her/it miserable” – and then you wait for something capable of enforcing your curse and inclined to do so to “take your call”. The highe the level of the spell used the more powerful the spirit – and the harder it is to break the link with curse-removal spells.

        That does mean that there’s another option for curse removal; the escape clause. As noted, every curse has escape clauses – with the most basic being “figure out which entity is empowering the curse, track whatever it is down, head into it’s home dimension and make it stop” (a rarely-stated option but always there). A lot of them have simpler clauses too. Get cursed by the dying woman you’ve just assassinated to “know the pain my children will suffer tenfold!” and you might be able to effectively get rid of the curse by adopting and caring for her now-orphaned kids. Make sure that they’re not suffering and the curse will have nothing to work with.

      • I think children don’t have many hit points to begin with… 10 times 1d6 can’t be more than 60 in any case^^

        But yeah, it’s good to know the spirit is a no-go… I guess a transformation will hae to do in that case.

        For the escape-clause… Well, if you made your curse with a purpose, just have the escape-clause be the same than your initial goal: If you curse someone to confess a crime, make it a compulsion to tell the truth and make the escape-hatch a full-blown confession.

        I believe there was something similar in 1001 Nights…

      • Generally not (I think it was three health levels in the Werewolf game). Thus the importance of letting your massive attack only damage the bad guys…

        And that often works. Thus the classic tomb-guardian curse: “Bring everything back and apologize or the mummy will kill you!”. Of course, the Maladiction spell template is intended to produce more classical plot-device curses than combat tactics. After all, player characters usually deal with problems very, very, directly.

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in: Logo

You are commenting using your account. Log Out /  Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out /  Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out /  Change )

Connecting to %s

This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.

%d bloggers like this: